STRIKES DURING GARRISON ENGAGEMENTS

Xariol
...the problem never was that defence was too hard (even before carrier tanks)...


I have emails and posts from you (and others) that state exactly the opposite, in apocalyptic terms about the future of the game.
I made decisions based in part on that feedback, such as extra defense platforms.
It isn't that I'm opposed to tweaking things.. I'm just wary because you guys sometimes let your opinions swing wildly in one direction or another depending on the strategy-flavor-of-the-week, with little room for nuance.
So I'll ask this:
Does anyone strongly disagree that Garrison Strike is too powerful during Engagements?
Before answering, remember that you might be on both the receiving and giving end -- Consider what's best for the game as a whole.

Given the stun time on a strike, it is fairly easy to use a few strikes to force a fail on an xix or xx level garrison. The damage is fine imo until it's paired with novas, at which point it is out of balance with even a high level ranked carrier defense team. It would essentially take a team of level 400 tanked carriers wearing metal repair gear to roll a nova defended garrison xvii or higher.
Strikes and novas both ignore gear choices and ship builds, so they are incredibly powerful. I'm not sure what the answer is, but it seems like giving some power to the gear choice might alleviate the problem without making a major change. Either assign strike and nova damage a variable like hit and let Eva defend against it, or assign it a crit variable and let crit resist defend against it.

Mithraeus

Oober

Mithraeus
I'd rather see nova defense limited than strikes. Strikes are finite. Novas are unlimited. I have a couple ideas.
Max of 4 novas per engagement.
Every defender nova explosion lowers the number of defenders available for the rest of that garrison engagement by 1.
Nova damage nerf on garrisons similar to strike damage nerf.
Strikes are tough, but they run out. I think strategic or toons exist for beating a strike only defense. That's not true of a nova defense.
Thumbs down if you agree.


Novas take a lot more preparation than strikes do. They are also limited by dura loss and the rp used to create them. I personally believe nova are indeed detrimental but not nearly as bad as strikes.
Though strikes may be limited, chaining them together is much easier than chaining a nova. Strikes also dont remove one defender from the field. Novas do. ( When defense is actually being used that is). Bd heals can be used to prevent deaths from Novas. The same can not be said of strikes. You bd heal from one, you get hit with another within seconds. And as ive seen most strikes are saved for defence purposes. This is true of all alliances. They are used in fleet but not nearly like they are for defense.
Getting past the strikes would involve getting the other team to use theres, which is not very viable with the way they are currently used. Unless you send a suicide team in for gb to die and repeat that death several times.
I don't think any changes to nova even if removed would fix what im seeing in garrison engagements. But that's my opinion.


Novas are limited by prep, but that's not really significant when you look at the number of low level novas are owned by multiboxers. 2-3 multiboxers can keep a steady stream of novas moving into garri sectors. Other than the dura loss, which is negligible if you own uc or r novas because repairs are cheap, there is no real downside to throwing novas at bust teams.
Strikes are finite. The bust team will suffer some deaths, but they will run out. It's more a question of will than mechanics with strikes.


You would still need to pay to repair or make new ones. either way novas are definitely harder to use than strikes. and have a much bigger downside than using strikes to bust. strikes replenish daily for free. you have to pay to fix your novas even at low rairty. one repair for per use. when used at the rate that some do. that dura goes away quickly and repair costs add up quickly.
and i think its a bit more complicated than will vs mechanics when it comes to strikes. even with only 20 strikes you could not only force a fail 4 times but you would also kill the entire bust team all 4 of those times

Mithraeus
Given the stun time on a strike, it is fairly easy to use a few strikes to force a fail on an xix or xx level garrison. The damage is fine imo until it's paired with novas, at which point it is out of balance with even a high level ranked carrier defense team. It would essentially take a team of level 400 tanked carriers wearing metal repair gear to roll a nova defended garrison xvii or higher.
Strikes and novas both ignore gear choices and ship builds, so they are incredibly powerful. I'm not sure what the answer is, but it seems like giving some power to the gear choice might alleviate the problem without making a major change. Either assign strike and nova damage a variable like hit and let Eva defend against it, or assign it a crit variable and let crit resist defend against it.


You just said that it only takes a few strikes to force a fail. and then say damage is fine? how does a few strikes forcing a fail = damage is fine?
I do however agree that allowing eva or some other resist stats to help counter strikes would be a start in the right direction.

The stun time forces the fail, not the damage.

Oober

Mithraeus

Oober

Mithraeus
I'd rather see nova defense limited than strikes. Strikes are finite. Novas are unlimited. I have a couple ideas.
Max of 4 novas per engagement.
Every defender nova explosion lowers the number of defenders available for the rest of that garrison engagement by 1.
Nova damage nerf on garrisons similar to strike damage nerf.
Strikes are tough, but they run out. I think strategic or toons exist for beating a strike only defense. That's not true of a nova defense.
Thumbs down if you agree.


Novas take a lot more preparation than strikes do. They are also limited by dura loss and the rp used to create them. I personally believe nova are indeed detrimental but not nearly as bad as strikes.
Though strikes may be limited, chaining them together is much easier than chaining a nova. Strikes also dont remove one defender from the field. Novas do. ( When defense is actually being used that is). Bd heals can be used to prevent deaths from Novas. The same can not be said of strikes. You bd heal from one, you get hit with another within seconds. And as ive seen most strikes are saved for defence purposes. This is true of all alliances. They are used in fleet but not nearly like they are for defense.
Getting past the strikes would involve getting the other team to use theres, which is not very viable with the way they are currently used. Unless you send a suicide team in for gb to die and repeat that death several times.
I don't think any changes to nova even if removed would fix what im seeing in garrison engagements. But that's my opinion.


Novas are limited by prep, but that's not really significant when you look at the number of low level novas are owned by multiboxers. 2-3 multiboxers can keep a steady stream of novas moving into garri sectors. Other than the dura loss, which is negligible if you own uc or r novas because repairs are cheap, there is no real downside to throwing novas at bust teams.
Strikes are finite. The bust team will suffer some deaths, but they will run out. It's more a question of will than mechanics with strikes.


You would still need to pay to repair or make new ones. either way novas are definitely harder to use than strikes. and have a much bigger downside than using strikes to defend. strikes replenish daily for free. you have to pay to fix your novas even at low rairty. one repair for per use. when used at the rate that some do. that dura goes away quickly and repair costs add up quickly.
and i think its a bit more complicated than will vs mechanics when it comes to strikes. even with only 20 strikes you could not only force a fail 4 times but you would also kill the entire bust team all 4 of those times

The damage cause loss of all mets. which entail forces fail or death.

I will just say this. aside from the last failed point bust i attempted. The 4 failed before that, not one nova was used. only strikes. each time the entirety of the bust team died. I understand novas are powerful too. 10 chained novas will cause a fail. However, those novas need to be prepped, online and ready to defend. With strikes, all you need is a super or lead from one corp to drop one on bust team every 6 seconds. and the bust team dies.
So please explain to me based on that how novas are easier to use or less costly?

I'm not really interested in arguing it with you, Oober. Ozy asked for feedback. I gave mine. Feel free to keep giving your own.

Ozymandias

Xariol
...the problem never was that defence was too hard (even before carrier tanks)...


I have emails and posts from you (and others) that state exactly the opposite, in apocalyptic terms about the future of the game.


this first because it applies below. wasn't wrong about the the game taking a bad turn. it's hard to find people that don't think it's in a bad way and getting worse. it played out slightly differently then i thought. took a bit longer. didn't just drive away farmers but also pvp people. can tell ya in more detail if ya ever have time. here's some main ones
-one of the big things though. no more "farm" servers to sell wryd terminuses to for 4k to 5k bd. no more making new ulti gear easily when you managed to sell one.
-farmers left or drastically reduced play time
-pvp vets are currently quitting by the truck load because they see the game as stagnant
-a lot of the people that quit (and i didn't see this one coming) were grey server people who got bumped from their spots on defense teams and bust teams because they didn't stack up to the higher lvl ships from other servers
i for one have been trying to figure out ways to stop the down turn. starting with making GB and defense something that isn't ridiculous. I happen to like the whole damn community, your company and even some of the jerks in the game. Would like to see the whole mess keep going.

Ozymandias

It isn't that I'm opposed to tweaking things.. I'm just wary because you guys sometimes let your opinions swing wildly in one direction or another depending on the strategy-flavor-of-the-week, with little room for nuance.
So I'll ask this:
Does anyone strongly disagree that Garrison Strike is too powerful during Engagements?
Before answering, remember that you might be on both the receiving and giving end -- Consider what's best for the game as a whole.


This might be a bit long winded but hopefully nobody thinks its biased one way or the other.
Here are the facts:
1. are strikes overpowered: yes
2. is nova defence overpowered: yes
3. carrier tank busts an extreme answer to extreme defense: yes
If an alliance wants to defend against an entire stack of carrier tanks they have some options.
1:huge coordination between a lot of players(not how anyone has ever done it, highly difficult, think herding cats)
2: strikes (super easy, bamf has mostly XX garrisons, hitsquad all XX garrisons) that's a lot of strikes
3:novas (bit of a chore to setup but totally doable as bamf has proven time and again)
If you change strikes but leave novas. it won't effect anyone really, it'll just be the way it was before. Alliance with carrier tanks has to catch the other alliance unprepared with a bunch of low hull novas.
If you change novas but leave strikes, then the carrier tank alliance just runs the other alliance out of strikes and rolls them.
Now if you get rid of nova defence and strikes and carrier tank busters. Then we're right back at square one.
Each side has enough min maxed defense ships to kill anything not tanked or stun anything not deflectored. (this is where the game sat for quite awhile until one side got enough high lvl carrier tanks to successfully bust a cluster)
THE ONLY UNTESTED OPTION IS CURRENTLY EVASION SETS. I'd really like to see them tried out. They went the way of the dodo bird when 100 hit chance no miss was sill the tactic of the day. I have no idea if a 140+ evasion setup no deflector ship is even capable of surviving a min maxed defense team(it certainly works against a rag tag team) any time i have tried it (tagging along in a carrier tank stack) the stack ran out of mets and i died.
SOLUTION IDEAS
I'm not entirely sure on this. A lot of people are sitting there with gear that will be useless if things are changed one way or the other. So you'll end up with huge amounts of players on either side losing their shit and threatening lawsuits if you make any change to any one aspect.
I do know something has to change
This is my current best solution, trying to keep things server side so clients don't need to be changed to much and try to keep the work load down on you. I know yer busy as hell.
1. Adjust novas: Make it so if novas are used in defense have a detrimental effect on the side using them. Like they can go ahead and use them but then they get no CP from the entire engagement. Even if it just requires them to have the same gear score that is required to bust in order to do any damage when they go off. Maybe make more than 1 nova used in defense cause the timer after fail to be really short. (Or have them do zero durability damage)
2. Adjust strikes: Make them so there's a delay on using them on a sector so you can't for instance spam a lot of strikes into one sector.
3. Adjust tanks: Adjust intradictor to splash stun like crazy if there are too many carrier tanks. The more carrier tanks the more splash stun.
4. Adjust resist bonuses. Not sure what would be the best be here. Temporary boosts of certain stats "splash resist, stun resist, grap resist". Skull perks or credit perks that the alliance can purchase?
5. Adjust adv propulsion. It currently sucks. Maybe server side change it to have a few attack stats and lower its resist stats a bit to adjust. Add some splash resist to it as well. This would make it a viable option.
That would probably be a good start. I probably missed some things in there but the game as a whole would probably be better for it. That's just the defense/bust aspect though. After these changes it might be found that defense needs a bit of work but I think it will probably be ok. It'll be a lot harder though.
6. This is more to adjust the game as a whole.
- add bonus stats to the lesser used ships in the game, server side
- flagship could offer boosts to ships in sector of the same corp. like area of effect buffs.
- corvette has a built in intradictor type device that can splash stun ships that attack it.
- have one of the lower lvl ships be capable of bumping non allied ships out of sector (like a ram but knock back instead of dmg) people could use them to farm invasion and drive off attackers easier.
don't need to add them all at once, update a ship every couple of weeks. maybe do 2 or 3 to start. perhaps lower ship gear ranking costs of to help out.
7. beef up rift, more roids, more high lvl roaming ships. maybe add in a roaming stack of wyrd, pirate, hets. make them hard. have a chance of giving you a dump of bds if you managed to beat them.
I'm gonna stop rambling now.