Change Gambling in TIB-X

I have a few suggestions regarding the gambling system for TIB-X. Keep in mind, this is my personal opinion and might contrast with yours (no surprise here in today's world), but with that being said let's get into this. If you are not willing to hear me out, at least read the last line explaining what I want to happen.
To start I would like to give a little background. I have been playing TIB for a considerable length of time now and have an extensive background in just about any facet of the game. I've run corps, played the market, blown up garrisons and players, had my own garrisons destroyed, run invasions with my mini-fleet... you get the idea. Through it all, one of the few things I disliked about it was the gambling; more specifically, gambling being run by the server. There is nothing wrong with having games of chance, they are a controversial topic in many other games, but personally, I don't feel they detract from a game when done correctly.
You might be wondering why gambling being run by the server is a bad thing. At first glance, it really doesn't seem to matter much. Maybe you don't even gamble and think this doesn't pertain to you. In either of these situations, you may not have considered the lasting impact on the game's economy, so that is what I am here for. I started playing the market almost as soon as I began a corp on green. It was a very good way to add to your income, especially since corps and the garrisons to repair items were so cheap. I used somewhat similar tactics on grey and gold as well and they also worked to varying degrees. The biggest thing I noticed during my marketing days was the surges and falls. Obviously, the market will surge after a bd sale, event, or brand new server, but after each and every one of them, the fall left players in a worse state than before. After a surge was over, people buying gear would crawl to an absolute halt only to surge up again after some new event. I always wondered why this trend happened in every single server I have been a part of. Before the gold server, I usually attributed this to just being the market normalizing, but I didn't have any workable analytical data, so I could never be sure. When gold came out, I spent some actual time looking into why this steady drop happens, that's when I realized I had originally been looking in the wrong place. Simply following market trends dosen't give an explanation, it just proves what happens. From there, I looked into what could possibly be draining the money supply. It couldn't be gear damage, it took forever to break gear and based on personal experience with repair and resell, it was extremely easy to fix gear. Corporate garrisons were another contender. When they were destroyed, the credits used to deploy them left the game entirely. However, this can't be a good explanation considering how few garrisons have been destroyed in the grand scheme of things. Since the release of the gold server, less than 8000 garrisons have been destroyed. This leaves only one other contender that completely removes money from the game, gambling. There aren't any statistics in the armory for credits lost, but there is one for credits won. Since the gold server release, there has been well over a billion credits won and with that just over 200,000 blackdollars won. This might seem like a great thing, but statistically, double zero roulette has a 5.26% house edge, meaning that on average, 5.26% of all money gambled will be lost. If you do a little bit of statistical math, over the course of gold's existence more than 130 million credits have been taken out of circulation and just about 22 thousand blackdollars. At the average market price of 4,000 credits per blackdollar, that translates to another 88 million credits lost. Given the total of more than 210 million equivalent credits lost (55 thousand equivalent blackdollars) from the gold server alone, this seems to be a very deterministic reason for the steady decline of market activity.
There is no simple fix to this problem. In TIB, gambling exists to regulate the money flow and keep the money supply limited, but it leads to other problems when the market isn't able to sustain itself. This system works for the most part when there is lots of money being created i.e. blackdollar purchases, farming... ect. The problems arise when the majority of people aren't willing to spend real money or put in a nearly endless stream of mind-numbing hours. The remedy of this problem would leave gambling in control of the players. Garrisons could serve as a casino (with the right tecs) and have their banks as the money to be paid out and into. This way, money isn't just appearing and disappearing at random, it is based on money that already exists. This isn't a 100% remedy as to fix gambling in this way would require a new market regulator, otherwise, the amount of money in the system only goes up giving us the exact opposite problem we have now. If we were to remedy gambling, we also need to find another way to stabilize the economy that matches actual player interactions rather than random chance. This is where gear durability comes in. As of right now, gear durability doesn't lead to hardly any market loss whatsoever. This is favorable to players who build gear over a long period of time and don't want to lose all of their pretty white and red gear. That's all well and good, but once you have good gear, you don't need to buy more and you won't have to worry about ever not having the gear you worked for. There isn't any changing TIB in this way, it is too ingrained that gear doesn't break. TIB-X gives that opportunity otherwise not accessible and it should be taken. With more gear being broken, that provides the needed loss of capital to replace server-run gambling with a metric that changes based on player activity. This can be balanced by increasing drop rate of gear, which brings the price of gear down, helping new players, and making it easier to recover from death and ultimately leading to less regard for gear loss, making the game less of a grind and more of teamwork, cooperation and the fun stuff that everyone wants to do.
This is how the casino Idea would work:

spaceballs12

If a corporation has a decent supply of money amassed and wants to make a bit more, they can place that money in a special bank. Players can bet their own money and are paid out by that special bank if they win. When players lose, that money is added to the special bank. Over time, given the house edge, the corporation will make money at least in theory. Where it becomes a true gamble is if the corporation chooses to have it open to all players, not just corporation members. (this would be a toggle in corp settings)
For example:
Corp A has 3,000,000 credits in their casino bank;
Player A bets 100,000 credits and those 100,000 credits are added to the bank.
The garrison draws a number with the same odds of roulette.
Player A's bet wins, so they receive 200,000 credits, taken out of the bank.
Corp A now has 2,900,000 credits;
Player B bets 200,000 credits and those 200,000 credits are added to the bank
The garrison draws a number and player B loses
The credits stay in the bank, so Corp A now has 3,100,000 credits
players have the chance to make money and so do corporations


Overall, what I am suggesting is:
1. Make Gambling run by corporations or alliances and funded by players so that money isn't taken out of the system.
2. Make gear much more fragile so there is more demand for gear.
3. Increase drop rates to compensate for making gear more fragile.
(keep in mind, this is a generalization of the goals and I state reasons for each of these)

If you have some feedback or are unsure of a point I made in my discussion, feel free to comment and I will try to explain further. If you read the whole thing, thanks for taking some of your time and I hope this was enlightening for you.

spaceballs12

Overall, what I am suggesting is:
1. Make Gambling run by corporations or alliances and funded by players so that money isn't taken out of the system.
2. Make gear much more fragile so there is more demand for gear.
3. Increase drop rates to compensate for making gear more fragile.
(keep in mind, this is a generalization of the goals and I state reasons for each of these)

If you have some feedback or are unsure of a point I made in my discussion, feel free to comment and I will try to explain further. If you read the whole thing, thanks for taking some of your time and I hope this was enlightening for you.


I don't intend to be one of those people that criticise for the sake of it but i think some of your arguments are flawed. You say the biggest factor taking money out of the game is gambling, how much has been taken out of the game by people quitting. of the top 20 in unity for credits there is about 2.1 billion credits, having played unity for 2.5 years i can only remember ever seeing maybe 6 of those and only 1 in the last 6 months. That is over 10 times the amount lost by gambling.
In relation to your points
1. You can't have gambling where money isn't taken out of the game, that's the point of a gamble. If you keep it in corps you just let people gamble with no way to lose the money and so the markets flood and the whole market collapses.
2. you said you have been playing for a long time, gear was more fragile and it was changed to encourage more pew. If you change it back to what it was, there will be less pew, fewer cp, fewer skulls. not a viable option imo as it would be a step backwards
3. Not really relevant if you don't do point 2 above.
I like the fact you are trying to think up ways to improve the game but i don't think these steps in particular will work. With the currency changing in tib-x i think the best option is to stick with the current system, test things on the expansion and change accordingly, rather than change for the sake of it before tib-x is out.

MG151011

You say the biggest factor taking money out of the game is gambling, how much has been taken out of the game by people quitting.


While this is true and a separate problem, I was simply focusing attention on one area that I feel needs improvement. I glossed over this point because there isn't much that can be done about this.

MG151011

of the top 20 in unity for credits there is about 2.1 billion credits, having played unity for 2.5 years i can only remember ever seeing maybe 6 of those and only 1 in the last 6 months. That is over 10 times the amount lost by gambling.


I did not calculate the metric of credits lost to gambling on the Unity server. Since the merge, there isn't any telling how accurate the data is which is why I referred to the Gold server only. If you wanted to scale results from Gold and apply them back it would require extensive research and much more reliable data than just the armory.

MG151011

In relation to your points
1. You can't have gambling where money isn't taken out of the game, that's the point of a gamble. If you keep it in corps you just let people gamble with no way to lose the money and so the markets flood and the whole market collapses.


Gambling between player happens all the time. Players hold raffles and draw winning numbers to determine winners. This requires trust and can lead to scammers, but if it is automated, scammers cannot work around the system as easily. You are also mistaken in the market flood. You have to understand if it is between players, the amount of money going in is equal to the money going out, it is simply moving that wealth around to different parts of the corp or alliance. It still feels like making money (or losing money if you arn't lucky), but that money came from somewhere which makes the market more stable.

MG151011

2. you said you have been playing for a long time, gear was more fragile and it was changed to encourage more pew. If you change it back to what it was, there will be less pew, fewer cp, fewer skulls. not a viable option imo as it would be a step backwards


Take this into context with 3 and understand that this cannot possibly be applied to regular TIB. With significantly higher drop rates, there will be more gear floating around and it brings the price of things waay down. If it costs a quarter of what it used to, to create a good setup, and it breaks 4 times as fast, it doesn't change anything PVP wise, only more market activity which is a good thing. This actually means newer players are able to pvp more easily, meaning more cps and skulls.
Thanks for your feedback, remember, this is for TIB-X, not TIB so we have the opportunity to try new things in a different environment.

spaceballs12

While this is true and a separate problem, I was simply focusing attention on one area that I feel needs improvement. I glossed over this point because there isn't much that can be done about this.


Fair enough, lets hops Tib-x changes this and more people stay

spaceballs12

I did not calculate the metric of credits lost to gambling on the Unity server. Since the merge, there isn't any telling how accurate the data is which is why I referred to the Gold server only. If you wanted to scale results from Gold and apply them back it would require extensive research and much more reliable data than just the armory.


My fault for comparing incorrect servers but even with Gold there are still a large number of players in the top 20 credits that i have never seen play

spaceballs12

Gambling between player happens all the time. Players hold raffles and draw winning numbers to determine winners. This requires trust and can lead to scammers, but if it is automated, scammers cannot work around the system as easily. You are also mistaken in the market flood. You have to understand if it is between players, the amount of money going in is equal to the money going out, it is simply moving that wealth around to different parts of the corp or alliance. It still feels like making money (or losing money if you arn't lucky), but that money came from somewhere which makes the market more stable.


I agree raffles etc happen but there are still people that lose money, someone always wins and the person donating the gear is usually compensated but 98% of people still lose money.
You say i am mistaken about the market flood but you also say that it is simply moving wealth as the amount of money going in is equal to the money going out, then i don't understand if you don't lose money, and there is no more money going in, how is this gambling. it is just the same as transferring credits to corp bank from player bank and vice versa?

spaceballs12

Take this into context with 3 and understand that this cannot possibly be applied to regular TIB. With significantly higher drop rates, there will be more gear floating around and it brings the price of things waay down. If it costs a quarter of what it used to, to create a good setup, and it breaks 4 times as fast, it doesn't change anything PVP wise, only more market activity which is a good thing. This actually means newer players are able to pvp more easily, meaning more cps and skulls.
Thanks for your feedback, remember, this is for TIB-X, not TIB so we have the opportunity to try new things in a different environment.


I think as you suggest this is best left to see how it pans out in tib-x rather then discuss things that are never going to change
Unless it is for clarification of my points i wont respond and more as i have had my say and will leave for other people to discuss. As i said though, it is good to see people thinking about these things and trying to improve the game

MG151011

I don't understand if you don't lose money, and there is no more money going in, how is this gambling. Is it just the same as transferring credits to corp bank from player bank and vice versa?

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If a corporation has a decent supply of money amassed and wants to make a bit more, they can place that money in a special bank. Players can bet their own money and are paid out by that special bank if they win. When players lose, that money is added to the special bank. Over time, given the house edge, the corporation will make money at least in theory. Where it becomes a true gamble is if the corporation chooses to have it open to all players, not just corporation members. (this would be a toggle in corp settings)
For example:
Corp A has 3,000,000 credits in their casino bank;
Player A bets 100,000 credits and those 100,000 credits are added to the bank.
The garrison draws a number with the same odds of roulette.
Player A's bet wins, so they receive 200,000 credits, taken out of the bank.
Corp A now has 2,900,000 credits;
Player B bets 200,000 credits and those 200,000 credits are added to the bank
The garrison draws a number and player B loses
The credits stay in the bank, so Corp A now has 3,100,000 credits
players have the chance to make money and so do corporations

MG151011

As i said though, it is good to see people thinking about these things and trying to improve the game


I agree, if this doesn't work, it doesn't work, but it's interesting nonetheless.

A lending bank sounds more interesting to me.
For example, spellbook has a central bank that players can deposit money in. That money earns a small percentage, like 3% a week or so. Then folks in their corp or alliance can borrow money at a rate of 1% a day. The difference of 4% per week would be a credit sink, or maybe a small part of that could go to alliance and corp.
Although corp and alliance will be different in TIB x so maybe it would just go to corp. That way noobs and vets would have a pool of credits to borrow from for repairs, new gear, etc.
As for repayment it could be voluntary, or mandatory upon leaving corp. so if you spaceball all your credits away and quit the corp, every dime you make goes into the Corp bank until the debt is repaid. And maybe a bounty goes on that player until the debt is paid.

Go Go SpaceBall!!!!!